The Egyptian heritage of Coptic Christians is also highlighted through a profound and extensive connection with Pharaonic culture evidenced through similarities in art and language.
Estimations of the number of Copts living within Egypt vary between 10 and 20 percent, depending on, as Bishop Angaelos, the general bishop of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the UK, points out, “whoever you decide to believe.” This uncertainty is due to animosity between the Muslim majority and Christian minority groups, with people on both sides underestimating and overestimating the figures. What can be certain, however, is that the Copts are a distinct and unmistakable community who make an effort to retain their identity.
The Coptic community in Britain is estimated at 20,000, excluding the 5,000-10,000 Copts who adhere to the British Orthodox Church, and they are scattered in diaspora communities across the UK. The expatriate Coptic community in the UK watched with bated breath as the Arab Spring and subsequent protests and political turbulence unfolded within Egypt. They feared the long-term repercussions of the revolution; namely, that the Egyptian Christians would face increased persecution due to the actions of extremists and the breakdown of law and order. The revolution’s initial role of uniting Christians and Muslims under one Egyptian banner of “newly found national identity” has now begun to break down, argues Bishop Angaelos. The upsurge in sectarian violence is partly blamed on the historic Muslim Brotherhood, a political party with deep Islamic roots, as well as independent radicals. It is thus predictable that the opposition candidate Ahmed Shafik received 75 percent of the votes among exiled voters in the United States, who are largely of the expatriate Coptic community.
This unrest has left the Coptic Christian community in Britain extremely concerned, to say the least. Bishop Angaelos marked the first anniversary of the protests with a series of prayers for the people who died during and since the revolution, calling for unity and an end to the violence. While there has been “no mass exodus” of Christians from Egypt, unlike in other Middle Eastern countries, the ongoing clashes could drive more Christians from Egypt to large diaspora communities around the world, Angaelos points out. Even within the respective diaspora communities, the Coptic community has faced discrimination. Some Coptic churches in Europe received threats in the aftermath of the 2011 Alexandria bombings, sparking fears of repeated attacks, although these threats have thus far been unfounded. Despite this, Britain may see more Coptic immigrants in the future, if sectarian violence against Christians continues to be an issue. In an interview with Sunday Zaman, Bishop Angaelos discusses these issues along with an array of other topics.
In May 2011 you said, “In the Arab Spring or our own spiritual lives, what is more important than overthrowing tyranny is holding on to our newly attained freedom.” More than a year later, how do you believe the reality in Egypt compares to this vision?
There is definitely a change in Egypt. There is a change in administration; there is a change in mindset. I think it’s still too early to know the actual outcome of the uprising because, while we have the visible manifestations of democracy, it’s not purely democracy yet. We don’t have, at the moment, a parliament. The parliament is dissolved. We don’t yet have a full cabinet. We have a president and he is still forming the government and the administration around him. So until we see a fully formed administration, and a fully functioning government, I think only then can you really make decisions as to whether what people wanted has come about. What people wanted was transparency, faithfulness, honesty, a government that has the interest of the people before their own interests, a government that has the interests of the country. And for that, we’ll have to wait and see.
Do you believe that the current political situation in Egypt is sustainable?
I think the current political situation in Egypt is still tenuous. It’s not final yet, it’s not fully formed. Once it is fully formed, then we will see whether it is sustainable or not, but in the current setting, as I said, there’s no parliament, there’s no cabinet, there’s no full administration, so of course it’s not sustainable at this stage, because the country in government is more than the president, but I am led to believe, we are all led to believe, that this is in the process of coming about, and I think to make that then sustainable, it must be transparent, it must be accountable. One thing we lacked in the last regime was accountability, and whether it’s another 30 years or three years, I don’t think the Egyptian people will be as quiet as they were and they are going to call whatever government it is to account.
Do you believe the Arab Spring has intensified or alleviated sectarian tensions within Egypt?
I think at its outset the uprising created a sense of unity. And if you remember those wonderful visions in Tahrir Square, where the whole country was there: Christians, Muslims. You didn’t see anything except Egyptian flags waving. I was there myself. I went in early February 2011, and it was a feeling of a newly found national identity, of people standing together, people joyous together. Soon after that, unfortunately, law and order started to break down, new found attacks on various churches and Christian communities. Only in the last few days has there been more of that. I think people look for leadership. If someone goes and commits a crime, and is not brought to justice, they’re just going to commit the same crime again. If I go and attack a church, and I am not brought to account, I’ll just attack another one. Likewise with a mosque [and] with a synagogue. And I think the problem is ever since the uprising, there is still no accountability. We’ve had churches bulldozed, we’ve had churches burnt down, we’ve had Christians killed, we’ve had villages torched, and it’s almost the same as it was before. No one’s been brought to justice, no convictions, and so therefore no justice at all.
What role should religion play in politics, and in particular Egyptian politics?
I think that is a very loaded question, between religion and politics. Of course there should be no inter-connection between religion and politics in decision-making. But religion and faith should be the moral compass of politics. So, as religious leaders, we should be able to speak out for justice, equality, rights, all of these things that are core to our faith, and the things that should really be brought into consideration when decisions are made and policies are made. We should not, however, use that to influence or politicize religion. So I don’t think religions should get involved in particular political parties or have political parties. We can call for general social justice and equality and reformation, but I don’t think we should be getting involved in the day-to-day decision-making.
Has nationalism in Egypt in the light of the Arab Spring served to unite or divide people from different religions and sects?
I think nationalism is an interesting concept because I don’t think we’ve had much nationalism in Egypt over the past 30 years, and if you ask people what their major sense of belonging was, it would have been to their religious groupings. I remember an interview with one of the highest authorities within the Muslim Brotherhood after the bombings in Alexandria, and he was asked, “Would you feel closer to a Coptic Egyptian Christian or to an Indonesian Muslim?” And his answer was, “No, of course, I would feel closer to an Indonesian Muslim” because of the concept of the Muslim Ummah, the nation of Islam.
Now, that’s not just his opinion, and because that became the view of the majority, the Christian minority also started to feel its identity in its own faith, because it was marginalized from everything else. Christians were not able to hold high-ranking government positions, influential posts, and so they started to identify more with their faith. So this is something that’s not going to be relieved overnight.
As I said, we saw a few seedlings of that during the uprising, because people really want it. But unless there is a government that wants to instate a sense of national identity, and nationalism, and social cohesion, and inclusion, then it’s not going to come about by itself. Governments must take responsibility in their countries, and they must lead the people. People want leadership. It must be a faithful leadership and an honest leadership and a transparent leadership. And so with that I think the current government, once it is formed and once it starts to function fully, needs to really look into instilling a sense of national identity, because as long as people are divided, they will continue to be separated, and the only answer is for them, of course, to be good Muslims and good Christians, but to be good Egyptians first, and then they’ve got something in common.
What is the future of religious minorities in Egypt, and in particular the Christians?
You know we don’t consider ourselves a minority. We are a minority only demographically because there are, you know, whoever you decide to believe, between 10 and 15 percent. We are an indigenous people; we’ve been there for over 2,000 years. We’ve seen a lot of persecution and we’ve outlived a lot of persecution. Ninety percent of Coptic Christians still live in Egypt. So there has been no mass exodus as there has been in other Middle Eastern countries. Egypt is still the home of the largest Christian community in the Middle East, the Coptic Christians.
Of course there are other Christians as well, smaller communities of Catholics, Evangelicals, Anglicans, various denominations. I don’t think Christians will go anywhere, I think they will always be there, not because they want to be confrontational, but because this is their home, it’s their heritage. It’s where they started: The Copts are the descendants of the Pharaohs, so we’ve been there since the first century, as a church, and we hope to stay there, by God’s grace.
And I think if the government is wise it will want Christians to stay there, to present that necessary diversity of a community, because, I assure you that even if the Christians were not there, other people would be attacked, and if you think back to the beginning of the uprising, the first Salafi attacks were not on Christians; they were on Sufi Muslims. And so, even if the Christians do go away, that’s not going to help anyone. But we don’t intend to go anywhere.
How do you believe that the appointment of Mohammed Morsi as president will impact the Christian community within Egypt?
Well, as a democratically elected president, even though it was a very small majority, he is the choice of the people, and he will answer to the people. I think we need to give him time. I think we need to look at his policies and assess them. I think he needs to understand that the eyes of Egypt will be on him. He’s said a lot of wonderful things so far, about inclusion, but these have yet to materialize. So, once they do materialize, in the fullness of time, we will be very happy to congratulate him. If they don’t materialize, we’ll ask why.
Would Shafik’s appointment as president have had a different impact upon the Egyptian Christian community?
I think that’s a hypothetical question. He hasn’t been chosen, he wasn’t elected and we’re not going to know. Politicians are politicians. They make promises and only into their administration do you figure out whether they’re actually going to deliver or not. He seemed to be a good man. He had just under 50 percent of the votes, so it was very close. But again that is hypothetical and is history. We just look towards the future.
Do you believe that Morsi’s resignation from the Muslim Brotherhood is significant?
I think it’s significant in terms of title. But I would hope that as a man of integrity, his membership in the Brotherhood was more than just a title. So whether he can actually turn his back completely on a body that he was a member of for so many years and was jailed for … I think it’s a catch-22 because if he is a man of integrity, then he can’t turn his back on his roots, and if he does turn his back on his roots, then how much integrity does he have?
What I would hope, though, is that there would be no political pressure from that on his decisions as the president of all of Egypt. And I am hoping that will be the difference. I don’t think the resignation itself is significant, but I think what would be significant is the mindset that says, “Now I am more than just a member of the Muslim Brotherhood; I am a president, democratically elected by the majority of Egyptians to serve all Egyptians, and my decisions will be made within that context.”
What, in your opinion, should be the next steps to ensure both democratic and religious freedom in Egypt?
I think there need to be bodies that are set up within the government and within the administration to ensure civil liberties, social justice, equality, the eradication of poverty and to ensure education. I think the most valuable gift to people is a sense of dignity, and their education, and to empower them to then make a living for themselves. But if people are living, being very vulnerable, unemployed, impoverished, uneducated, then they become more vulnerable to abuse — ideologically, financially — and that’s not going to help anyone, so I think to ensure all of these things, you must empower people first.
And then, as I’ve said a few times, make the government and the decision-makers and the policy-makers accountable for their decisions, and look at their long-term plan. Is there a long-term plan for unifying Egypt, or are we just going to keep crisis-managing, and firefighting, and not looking ahead? If we’re only crisis-managing and firefighting, then nothing will change because we’ll have conflicts and we’ll have wonderful resolutions and gatherings on television that give people the impression that everything is fine. But the core problems aren’t resolved.
Syria needs wisdom, a merciful eye for resolution
What is your opinion on the ongoing crisis in Syria?
Syria is a very difficult situation, and I feel a lot of pain for people who are there. At the same time I am very thankful that Egypt didn’t turn into Syria, Libya or Iraq, and I think that’s a testimony to the Egyptian people, and as part of the Egyptian people, the military and everyone else, it could have been that bad, but hasn’t been.
Syria needs a definitive answer and that answer is never going to come externally. There needs to be a decision in Syria that there has been enough bloodshed, and that parties need to come together. It is without a doubt that there is a government and a president and a regime. It is also without a doubt that there is a significant opposition movement, and I think if nothing is done to bring them together, or if they both don’t want some sort of resolution, then it is the people on the street who will continue to pay the price. So we pray for wisdom. It needs wisdom and it needs a merciful eye. An eye that looks upon people and says, “Enough mothers weeping for their sons, enough children losing fathers, enough families being destroyed, enough people dying, and for what?”
This is because at the end of the day, this will be resolved somehow. If it takes a day, a week, a month, a year, 10 years, it will be resolved. The only difference will be the body count, and as long as we can resolve it earlier, then hopefully that will be kept down. … Well, it’s already too high, but at least it can be kept where it is now.
(Today’s Zaman)
